Kennel Bashing

[Five-Star K9]

Ive been reading some old thread on different kennels... I have to say, alot of kennels I thought were awesome have very bad reputations. To me, alot of factors may cause it. Whether it be that Success brings hatred and envy or that the pieces of shit really deserve that rep... im not here to judge anyone for anything. Although I do think that most breeders I used to put on a pedestal are only that... breeders. Most breeders care for their dogs as they would care for non-domesticated animals. But dogs are supposed to be domestic animals. I used to believe every word breeders said, (we make no money off of it, we mostly breed for temperament, we breed for ourselves first and sell the rest of the puppies) I find in many breeders that most f it is true. But never all of it. So I think that succesful breeders who own many dogs will get bashed on, because mistakes and wrong moves that small breeders do once in awhile have a higher frequency with breeders who own more dogs. mind u, i dont think succes = owning more dogs. ne ways im guessing u get wa i mean. My whole point is, Im a dog trainer and before physique, pedigree and all other things, we look for temperament. I am surprised and at the same time, ive already been told about it but kept a shut ear to see that a lot of breeders out there have HA dogs and DA dogs, and breed them. Now of course if you own too many dogs and have a job and have a hard breed such as a bully, these problems are common. I guess I just didnt they were that common. I am not pointing at any CB breeders or any breeders in particular, I was just thinking that to myself and felt like sharing my opinion becuz as a dog trainer 1st and soon to be breeder... i have a different point of view. im eager to hear anyone elses opinion on mines.

[Five-Star K9]

I do not think Im better than anyone. Please do not feel offended or attacked by this thread. Im not asking you to defend urself or nothing. just tell me what u think.

[RC Bullies]

I feel what you're saying.

[Five-Star K9]

I feel what you're saying.

Thanx, 43 views... only 1 reply. I think I pissed off some people by mistake. I really did not mean to. I was just shocked to hear breeders say we breed for temperament and then hear them say my male is DA or HA... I guess this subject is a little taboo. thx for feeling me on this one.

[Ironjaw]

First, I love your motto or quote (whatever you want to call it)!!

It is a tough subject.
I think what pitbull breeders mean about "breeding for temperament", is "people friendly".
The 'game' breeders' in my opinion, breed for temperament, but may breed for HA dogs (I recently learned what that meant) because that was/is the natural trait of the old game dogs. Do you know at an APBT dog show, the judge wants to see some 'DA' (this is what I am told).
I mean isn't it like asking "Why is that herding dog herding"?

Our breed can be dog aggressive. I think controlling the dog is key.

I see your a trainer. Positive training or what I call "old fashion"? Anyway, just my thoughts too.

[Ironjaw]

Hey, where did he go? This would have been a good subject. Darn.

[Hamanu]

for all the bashing, the same breeders still make all that money and still get the recognition, who knows why...

and off topic, yes paying 10,000 for stud service is ridick...

[Five-Star K9]

i didnt go anywhere, i just came home from school. I train in both reinforcement techniques but prefer what u call old fashion because most of my clients have hard cases that cant really be train in only positive reinforcement, but both work and i use both and i like both just as much. I have never heard that DA was acceptable in american bullies. And why would it be, dog fighting is illegal. Anyways maybe i am wrong, someone should correct me if I am. But I was also and mostly speaking of people with HA dogs. But imo, any dog, no matter what breed that is DA and/or HA doesnt have a good temperament. I dont know about if the ABKC UKC and AKC standards for DA and HA are the same. I hope more people will participate in this convo. 10 000?! lol holy crap thts a lot

[Hamanu]

yes it is. cant remmber the site off hand but that was the price, might hve been 12 now that i think of it. as far as DA or HA, HA will never be allowed in my dogs, DA i dont worry about, but people still want it, around my town anyway. thats why i wont sell any around here.

[Five-Star K9]

hmm... i dont see y DA would be accepted. who wants a DA dog as a pet? if im sposed to walk a dog everyday and have it bark at all passing dogs... fuck dat. dog fighting is illegal DA dogs shouldnt be accepted... especially from professional breeders.

[RC Bullies]

Some DA is tolerable, not preferred, but American Bullies did come from APBTs... It's in the blood. Now, if they're controllable and don't go after every dog and can get along with dogs in the yard, that's fine.

1 of my dogs, doesn't like strange dogs, especially when they are the aggressors. But in the yard with other dogs, no problem...

Absolutely no Human Agression. Protective is good, but no HA.

[D&MBullies]

The 'game' breeders' in my opinion, breed for temperament, but may breed for HA dogs (I recently learned what that meant) because that was/is the natural trait of the old game dogs.

On the contrary, HA was never a quality dogmen bred for. HA dogs are a liability to the handlers that had to be in the box with thier dogs. HA is totally unnatural for APBTs, though some people have taken the dogs in different directions for thier own reasons such as personal protection work.

[RC Bullies]

On the contrary, HA was never a quality dogmen bred for. HA dogs are a liability to the handlers that had to be in the box with thier dogs. HA is totally unnatural for APBTs, though some people have taken the dogs in different directions for thier own reasons such as personal protection work.

True.

[RoyalPitbullKennels]

The UKC standard states that "some" DA is ok, but not so much that you can't control your dog or you are asked to leave a show.

I don't want my dogs to be violent, but I do want them to act like a bully breed. All bully breeds come from the old time bulldog, which was used for many tasks.....because of its strong will and temperment. I want a fire behind my dogs so that I know they are still in the sense a bully breed. Even if they look like a bulldog some dogs don't act like them and thats because its been tamed down by breeding practices. I even know of Eng. Bulldogs that have some fire behind them when they get around a dog they don't care for.


I can't stand a dog that is uncontrolable, but if my dog barks or growles at another dog I'm not gonna flip out about it, because I know WE have control over the dogs. Some of our dogs are softy's, and some are more fire behind them, I honestly prefer the dogs that have the fire rather than the softy's. Because the dog that have that lil bit of fire still have a great temperment and are loving but they can hang with the best of them when it comes to rough housing and playing with us....the softies just aren't into it like the others, they'd rather sit and soak up the sun.


IMO male on male aggession is very normal and same for female on female aggression....................even in other breeds/speices.


AND TO MAKE A POINT HA SHOULD NEVER BE TOLERATED, NIP THAT ONE IN THE BUTT FAST AND PUT A DOG DOWN IF NEEDED, ITS THE RESPONSIBLE THING TO DO.

[Five-Star K9]

The UKC standard states that "some" DA is ok, but not so much that you can't control your dog or you are asked to leave a show.

I don't want my dogs to be violent, but I do want them to act like a bully breed. All bully breeds come from the old time bulldog, which was used for many tasks.....because of its strong will and temperment. I want a fire behind my dogs so that I know they are still in the sense a bully breed. Even if they look like a bulldog some dogs don't act like them and thats because its been tamed down by breeding practices. I even know of Eng. Bulldogs that have some fire behind them when they get around a dog they don't care for.


I can't stand a dog that is uncontrolable, but if my dog barks or growles at another dog I'm not gonna flip out about it, because I know WE have control over the dogs. Some of our dogs are softy's, and some are more fire behind them, I honestly prefer the dogs that have the fire rather than the softy's. Because the dog that have that lil bit of fire still have a great temperment and are loving but they can hang with the best of them when it comes to rough housing and playing with us....the softies just aren't into it like the others, they'd rather sit and soak up the sun.


IMO male on male aggession is very normal and same for female on female aggression....................even in other breeds/speices.


AND TO MAKE A POINT HA SHOULD NEVER BE TOLERATED, NIP THAT ONE IN THE BUTT FAST AND PUT A DOG DOWN IF NEEDED, ITS THE RESPONSIBLE THING TO DO.

sory, i totally disagree, DA is not a breed thing. Its a psycholically driven behavior and/or state of mind. DA is also genetic. How are we to ever expect pits not to attack other peoples dogs in the street and have a bad rep if professional breeders breed, want and accept DA in their dogs. I have learned through experience that with dogs, small problems become BIG ONES. DA included. I knew plenty of DA dogs, I was training one an hour ago. But with training DA can be HEALED if u will. Putting down a dog that is DA is not the right thing to do. HELL NO! not to me. making sure that dog gets a responsible owner who will work to cure it or getting help from a trainer to stop it. thats responsible. Im sorry, i have to disagree on that. Keeping your dogs away from other dogs through cages, walls, leashes and chains is not CONTROL. Putting your dog on a sit/stay right next to a dog he wanted to kill 5 minutes ago and socializing it, being able to walk your dog next to any other dog, thats CONTROL! and its not impossible, ive been doing it all day. with 2 rottweilers, 3 german shepherds and 1 pitbull. i completely disagree.

[RoyalPitbullKennels]

sory, i totally disagree, DA is not a breed thing. Its a psycholically driven behavior and/or state of mind. DA is also genetic. How are we to ever expect pits not to attack other peoples dogs in the street and have a bad rep if professional breeders breed, want and accept DA in their dogs. I have learned through experience that with dogs, small problems become BIG ONES. DA included. I knew plenty of DA dogs, I was training one an hour ago. But with training DA can be HEALED if u will. Putting down a dog that is DA is not the right thing to do. HELL NO! not to me. making sure that dog gets a responsible owner who will work to cure it or getting help from a trainer to stop it. thats responsible. Im sorry, i have to disagree on that. Keeping your dogs away from other dogs through cages, walls, leashes and chains is not CONTROL. Putting your dog on a sit/stay right next to a dog he wanted to kill 5 minutes ago and socializing it, being able to walk your dog next to any other dog, thats CONTROL! and its not impossible, ive been doing it all day. with 2 rottweilers, 3 german shepherds and 1 pitbull. i completely disagree.

I never said that I would put down a DA dog, I said HA. I guess we can agree to disagree then because I have no issue with a dog that may not want to be best friends with the next dog in comes into contact with. We take the dogs out to BBQ's and shows with no issues, if my dogs can get a foot or less away from another an be cool great, it happens all the time but there might be an instance when the wrong dog steps one inch to close and if my dog wants to tell that dog to back off by showing its dominance then so be it, but I wouldn't let it go aftet the other dog-it would be redirected....All I'm saying is its behind our dogs and always will be, its part of them so I have no problem with it. I know what dogs of ours get along together and what ones don't, none of the males are ever out together, the females are ok besides Bonnie and my gamebred girl but ironicly they get along, some have a yard buddy others don't............that being said I never put my dogs in a situation that could cause a fight because thats the last thing I want to happen. You may say that having a DA dog is a fight waiting to happen but IMO as long as the dog is controled in a safe environment with people who are responsible I say all is well.

[Five-Star K9]

I never said that I would put down a DA dog, I said HA. I guess we can agree to disagree then because I have no issue with a dog that may not want to be best friends with the next dog in comes into contact with. We take the dogs out to BBQ's and shows with no issues, if my dogs can get a foot or less away from another an be cool great, it happens all the time but there might be an instance when the wrong dog steps one inch to close and if my dog wants to tell that dog to back off by showing its dominance then so be it, but I wouldn't let it go aftet the other dog-it would be redirected....All I'm saying is its behind our dogs and always will be, its part of them so I have no problem with it. I know what dogs of ours get along together and what ones don't, none of the males are ever out together, the females are ok besides Bonnie and my gamebred girl but ironicly they get along, some have a yard buddy others don't............that being said I never put my dogs in a situation that could cause a fight because thats the last thing I want to happen. You may say that having a DA dog is a fight waiting to happen but IMO as long as the dog is controled in a safe environment with people who are responsible I say all is well.

I definitly understand what ur saying. but im a trainer so my dog needs to know that im boss at all times. so if another dog steps the wrong way and he decides to growl or bark hes taking charge.... im the boss, i take charge and i let him know... u aint gotta worry bout no dog. worry bout what i want u to do. that is what i call control over your dog. not making sure that when ur dog is at the end of the leash, hes still to far to bite another dogs head. but hey bullies are a hard breed and when u have many its hard to control them. so im not judging, im just yknow, stating my opinion. i think ur all great guys... and girls! with great dogs. we just dont roll the same way u feel me. but i respect and i agree to disagree.

[BlueBull]

Dog agression is absolutely a breed trait. and it completely acceptable according to the standard for the breed. Have you read the APBT standard?
From the UKC standard-
Because most APBTs exhibit some level of dog aggression and because of its powerful physique, the APBT requires an owner who will carefully socialize and obedience train the dog. The breed's natural agility makes it one of the most capable canine climbers so good fencing is a must for this breed. The APBT is not the best choice for a guard dog since they are extremely friendly, even with strangers. Aggressive behavior toward humans is uncharacteristic of the breed and highly undesirable.

Note: Although some level of dog aggression is characteristic of this breed, handlers will be expected to comply with U.K.C. policy regarding dog temperament at U.K.C. events.

Dog aggression is a trait that was bred into the APBT from the conception of the breed. the American Bully is a direct off-shoot of that breed its insane to think that they will not carry the trait. true not to the degree or with the prevalence of the true APBT but they absolutely will have it and it shouldnt be penalized. With training you can curb the behavior but no matter how much of an alpha you are you cant get rid of dog aggression like that. its something that the dog will have no matter what... but you can teach them how to react to and deal with it.

training to the side where the APBT is concerned dog aggression is a natural occuring and completely natural trait. Gamebred puppys at only weeks old have to be seperated because they "turn on" it has nothing to do with control or socialization that early on its instictive nature of the breed with a heightened sense of the desire to dominate and not back down. Can you break your dog from picking a fight sure... but if you thik you can break an APBT from fighting your in the wrong breed of dog. JMO.

[Five-Star K9]

so ur saying UKC wont accept? how can u tell me i cant get rid of DA like that. Im a trainer, i got rid of it so many times. I cant make a DA dog become best friend with dogs. But I can make him shut the fuck up and stop aggressing other dogs. I dunno man... i dunno how can we expect them not to have a bad rep and we accept aggression. OH! look at cesar millan. He has tons of pitbulls, bullies too. they all get along!

[BlueBull]

I am telling you, that you have NEVER got rid of dog aggression... NEVER.

you have trained the dog how to deal with the drive to dominate, thats not removing the drive though. the DA is still there. Cesar has to deal with dog fighting too... dont let the art of film editing make you think that Cesars dogs never fight. They are all living together in a pack but i promis you he has to deal with altercations. and he doesnt have gamebreds... he has bullys. again these are watered down dogs. Cesar is the first one to admit that dog aggression is common and accepted... and if you listen to his quote "NEVER trust a pitbull not to fight."

that doesnt stop regardless of training.

[RC Bullies]

This is a good thread.

[D&MBullies]

I am telling you, that you have NEVER got rid of dog aggression... NEVER.

you have trained the dog how to deal with the drive to dominate, thats not removing the drive though. the DA is still there. Cesar has to deal with dog fighting too... dont let the art of film editing make you think that Cesars dogs never fight. They are all living together in a pack but i promis you he has to deal with altercations. and he doesnt have gamebreds... he has bullys. again these are watered down dogs. Cesar is the first one to admit that dog aggression is common and accepted... and if you listen to his quote "NEVER trust a pitbull not to fight."

that doesnt stop regardless of training.

Well said. You can't undo over a hundred years of breeding for gameness just like that. Sure, you may be able to curve DA some, or redirect the behavior in other ways. I like Caesar Milan, he's okay in my book but I'm not gonna let my dogs off the leash together without my good 'ol parting stick, well trained or not.

[BlueBull]

Well said. You can't undo over a hundred years of breeding for gameness just like that. Sure, you may be able to curve DA some, or redirect the behavior in other ways. I like Caesar Milan, he's okay in my book but I'm not gonna let my dogs off the leash together without my good 'ol parting stick, well trained or not.

Amen to that!

[BlueBull]

Ive been reading some old thread on different kennels... I have to say, alot of kennels I thought were awesome have very bad reputations. To me, alot of factors may cause it. Whether it be that Success brings hatred and envy or that the pieces of shit really deserve that rep... im not here to judge anyone for anything. Although I do think that most breeders I used to put on a pedestal are only that... breeders. Most breeders care for their dogs as they would care for non-domesticated animals. But dogs are supposed to be domestic animals. I used to believe every word breeders said, (we make no money off of it, we mostly breed for temperament, we breed for ourselves first and sell the rest of the puppies) I find in many breeders that most f it is true. But never all of it. So I think that succesful breeders who own many dogs will get bashed on, because mistakes and wrong moves that small breeders do once in awhile have a higher frequency with breeders who own more dogs. mind u, i dont think succes = owning more dogs. ne ways im guessing u get wa i mean. My whole point is, Im a dog trainer and before physique, pedigree and all other things, we look for temperament. I am surprised and at the same time, ive already been told about it but kept a shut ear to see that a lot of breeders out there have HA dogs and DA dogs, and breed them. Now of course if you own too many dogs and have a job and have a hard breed such as a bully, these problems are common. I guess I just didnt they were that common. I am not pointing at any CB breeders or any breeders in particular, I was just thinking that to myself and felt like sharing my opinion becuz as a dog trainer 1st and soon to be breeder... i have a different point of view. im eager to hear anyone elses opinion on mines.

incidentally i do agree with a lot of what you say tho.

a lot of breeders and kennels ( andi use both terms very loosely) pain t a pretty picture of what they breed for and how thier dogs are raised but its not reality. Go to a show and you will be shocked how many people cant even get thier dogs to sit on command. Dogs live thier lives in kennels with limited interaction and virtually no training or soclialization too. This is one of the main reasons that people should keep thier number of dogs down,because it takes a lot of time and work to get one dog to a good point in its life when you look at some yards people have 8, 9, 10... or even more dogs you know there isnt enough time in the day for them to get the time they really need. I do a constant rotation at my house from the time i get home from work and i get done with dogs in just enough time to go to bed... and i only have 4! Not to get to deep into that just saying i hear what you are saying and i agree completely.

[Five-Star K9]

well. im not gonna argue wit you, cesars dogs fight. I understand where ur coming from. imo, DA should be eliminated in all breeds through breeders, but thats another subject there. In my case. I wont accept DA from any of my dogs and Im not gonna put em in kennel. Im gonna use cages and im gonna train and socialise. Well Socialising your dog can eliminate DA. Ive seen it at Mike's www.nomadbullies.com this morning. I like wat u do wit ur dogs man.

[BlueBull]

DA is "being removed" so to speak. The drive to dominate other dogs and not back down is naturally occuring but it is something that was selectively bred for for a long time. Because its not being sought out anymore dogs are being bred that dont carry and therefore are less likely to reproduce the trait.
I understnad what you are saying, Thats the way i feel about gameness. I dont think that anyone needs a game dog these days. by all means keep the gamebreds alive as theyare the last echos of the true APBT but as far as testing them to see if they are game... fuck that.

[Five-Star K9]

word, i second that ''fuck that''

[koonsquadpits]

DA is "being removed" so to speak. The drive to dominate other dogs and not back down is naturally occuring but it is something that was selectively bred for for a long time. Because its not being sought out anymore dogs are being bred that dont carry and therefore are less likely to reproduce the trait.
I understnad what you are saying, Thats the way i feel about gameness. I dont think that anyone needs a game dog these days. by all means keep the gamebreds alive as theyare the last echos of the true APBT but as far as testing them to see if they are game... fuck that.

To be the devils advocate then how do keep gameness without testing it. I have had this conversation with game dog breeders and they tell me that the testing is done in a control setting and the dogs are wearing muzzels. It is hard to find a dog that really cares this trait to the extent that they will keep on fighting even when there losing. Most breeders say if they get one dog that cares that trait out of four breedings then they are happy. But again I dont agreey with breeding for DA.

[BlueBull]

To be the devils advocate then how do keep gameness without testing it. I have had this conversation with game dog breeders and they tell me that the testing is done in a control setting and the dogs are wearing muzzels. It is hard to find a dog that really cares this trait to the extent that they will keep on fighting even when there losing. Most breeders say if they get one dog that cares that trait out of four breedings then they are happy. But again I dont agreey with breeding for DA.

Thats just it... you dont keep it. its not needed outside of the box. rolling, matching, testing is only done for the purpose of establishing gameness therefore a truely gamedog is a fighting dog. you dont need a gamedog, even if a dog is bamebred it doesnt need to be tested.

[koonsquadpits]

Thats just it... you dont keep it. its not needed outside of the box. rolling, matching, testing is only done for the purpose of establishing gameness therefore a truely gamedog is a fighting dog. you dont need a gamedog, even if a dog is bamebred it doesnt need to be tested.

You are right but most breeders will tell you thats what makes a pit a pit the gameness. I know pits are loyal and all that but what other breed has the reputation and well deserved for its fighting skills as the pit. To me the pit is a dog that lost his purpose along time ago which was fighting. But to be honest the gameness is not what attracted me to the breed it was the clean look of the pit.